Hosted by Christina Ruffini and Sir Richard Dearlove
Guest
Brian Latell
Brian Latell is a Ph.D. and 35-year CIA veteran and the agency's top Cuba and Latin America analyst assessing whether the government can survive Trump's fuel embargo.
Episode Summary
Cuba is running out of fuel, its economy is in ruins, and 2 million of its citizens have already fled. Is the communist regime finally at its breaking point?
Sir Richard Dearlove and Kate McCann sit down with Brian Latell, PhD, a 35-year CIA veteran and the agency's top Cuba and Latin America analyst. They assess whether the government can survive Trump's fuel embargo, what a transition would actually look like, and why Marco Rubio's approach may be more measured than his rhetoric suggests.
In this episode:
04:19 US-Cuba Relations
10:25 Risks of Squeezing Cuba Too Hard
13:03 Can the Regime Collapse Peacefully
18:03 Who Holds Power in Havana
23:02 Intelligence Files and Biosecurity Fears
27:31 Rebuilding Cuba and Diaspora Role
29:35 What Drives Marco Rubio
31:08 One Decision to Watch Next
Hosted by Sir Richard Dearlove (former MI6 Chief) and Kate McCann (Political Editor at Times Radio).
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Transcript
COLD OPEN
Mccann: What drives Marco Rubio in this?
Dearlove: The infrastructure of communist parties is, until it collapses, extraordinarily effective.
Lattell: The big question is what kind of political change does the American government want in Cuba? Are they comfortable with President Diaz-Canel, Raul Castro's handpicked president of Cuba?
INTRODUCTION
Mccann: Hello, and welcome to One Decision. I am your cohost, Kate McCann, and I'm joined as ever by Sir Richard Dearlove. Hi, Sir Richard.
Dearlove: Hi, Kate. Nice to be with you again.
Mccann: Lovely to see you. And this week, we're going to talk about Cuba. So, Richard, before we get into the episode and introduce our brilliant guest who's joining us today, I just want to pick your brains because I understand you have some personal recollections, I suppose, some personal feelings about Cuba and the context that goes into the episode today.
Dearlove: Well, it goes back a long way, but I was at an American school in Connecticut in the autumn of 1962. And I remember very, very graphically indeed the Cuban missile crisis. And this was brought home to me recently because amongst my mother's possessions, I found all the letters I had written to her when I was at school in America. I was a prolific letter writer. And I found the letter I'd written as a 17 year old teenager about the Cuban missile crisis, which was written in a very sort of prosaic and direct way saying, well, the school tell us that there might be a nuclear war. And to read that document, because it is now a document in a way, it's quite shaking. But it's also quite extraordinary that one could have written a letter like that, which I don't think was particularly unusual at the time, and just, you know, accepting that those were one's circumstances. So, you know, I remember the missile crisis very, very graphically because there was a huge tension in the school community, and, you know, it was a boarding school. We were all living there, and it was quite close to the American naval base where all their submarines were in Connecticut. So, yeah, it's an interesting point to start this discussion because it sort of gives it immediate contemporary perspective and reminds us how long ago the Cuban revolution was in 1959 and then what tension that generated strategically in global affairs, you know, within a few years of the revolution.
Mccann: Well, it feels like the perfect moment to bring in our guest today for this podcast. The United States restricting fuel shipments. Washington is demanding change in an island under enormous pressure. To help us understand what's going on and some of the context too, we're joined by thirty five year CIA veteran Brian Lattell. Doctor Lattell served as the top analyst for Cuba and Latin America for decades, starting his focus on the region in the early 1960s and acting as a lead expert through the late 1990s. Doctor Lattell teaches at Florida International University and authored three books on Fidel Castro, including The CIA and Cuba's Intelligence Machine. Welcome to the podcast, Doctor Lattell.
INTERVIEW
Lattell: Thank you, and good morning. And, Richard, I want to tell you, I remember the missile crisis very vividly as well. I was already a junior, a very, very junior CIA analyst, and it was a very terrifying time. But it's very good to be with you both this morning.
Dearlove: Thank you. It's delightful. Therefore, you're a bit older than me if you were already a CIA analyst.
Mccann: Well, it's great to have your perspective, Doctor Lattell, because I think, you know, for lots of people when they hear Cuba, they think about the Cuban missile crisis. Can you set for us, I suppose, the tone of the conversation today? Where are we now when it comes to American relations with Cuba?
Lattell: The relationship has been strained for all of these years, these sixty seven years since the Cuban revolution. The dawn of the revolution in Cuba with Fidel Castro and Raul Castro was January 1959. The relationship has always been strained except for a brief period, an interregnum, during President Obama's administration when he and Raul Castro, then the top leader in Cuba, reached a rather stunning rapprochement. Stunning but temporary because it was basically precluded after the 2016 presidential election here in the United States when Donald Trump came to office. And during his first term, the relationship reverted back to where it had always, most always had been. Today, the relationship is one of tenuous probing, I think that's a fair way of expressing it, on both sides of the Florida Straits. Tenuous probing, tenuous examining the attitudes, the aspirations, the fears of the other. The Cuban regime, the communist regime in Cuba is in dire straits. There's simply no question about that, worse than it has ever been in communist Cuba. The people are unhappy. There's a great deal of unrest, I think unprecedented levels of unrest. And those burst out into the open in the summer in July 2021, when Cubans all across the island, in towns and cities and villages all across the island, they were linked to each other through social media. And they were rushing out into the streets of their communities protesting the communist regime and calling for liberty and freedom. The regime acted very harshly with extreme, punitive measures in trials and punishment and imprisonments, and a large number of the young Cuban protesters are still in prisons. So the population is very unhappy, not just because of those events, but because of the dire, dire humanitarian and economic crisis the country is experiencing now.
Mccann: So what brought things to a head again? I mean, you mentioned that there had been a period of relative calm under President Obama. We are obviously under a completely different type of administration with the current Trump administration. And Donald Trump most recently has said — well, he said a lot of things, but he says things like, I think I can do anything I want with Cuba. Why have we come to this point of tension now?
Lattell: I think President Trump is experiencing a feeling of considerable hubris after his unlikely and surprising victory in Venezuela. I think President Trump and his advisers, especially at the Pentagon and the Defense Department, felt very buoyed and very certain that maybe they could pull off something just as easily in Cuba. But that's very unlikely that they could actually do that.
Dearlove: I mean, can you envisage after such a long period of communist rule some sort of political transformation which would be, let's say, partially negotiated. There's been talk of — is it Raul's grandson, Raul-ito, already talking to Rubio informally about a change, let's say, in the economic situation in Cuba? How do you view that process?
Lattell: There have been discussions about economic change on the island. And so far, the Cuban government has expressed willingness, limited willingness, to implement some economic reforms. But US observers generally, both in and out of government, and especially here in Miami, are stating or commenting that those reforms that they're willing to make, that they've said they're willing to make, are inadequate. The big question is what kind of political change does the American government want in Cuba? Are they comfortable with President Diaz-Canel, Raul Castro's handpicked president of Cuba. He's been the president of Cuba now since 2018. He's very unpopular on the island. And he may not be able to stay in office if the US puts a great deal of pressure on the Cubans to enact political as well as economic change. And of course, the United States has enormous and unprecedented leverage because Cuba now is almost without fuel, any kind of gasoline for their trucks, gasoline for their cars. It's a lever that Trump keeps pressing because the big change occurred after Maduro was taken out of Venezuela, and all of the Venezuelan oil that was flowing into Cuba, which had been flowing into Cuba for quite a few years, that flow has now been stopped. Mexico has not been providing any fuel either, which they had been doing. And Trump is threatening anybody and basically leveraging or threatening anyone, any other country: don't provide fuel for the Cubans. So how much longer the Cubans can manage even to keep the lights on as intermittently as they manage to do now is really the most pressing question.
Mccann: Doctor Lattell, I'm really interested by that tactic. And I wonder whether you think that the Trump administration's hope was if they choked off so many essential services in Cuba and made it so difficult for people to live there, that it would bring the government to, if not its knees, at least the negotiating table, and there would be a way for the Americans to have influence in some kind of regime change. But if that doesn't work, does it run the risk of actually exacerbating some of the things that America doesn't like? Immigration, some of the illegal trade. Does that make those problems worse in the long run?
Lattell: It does, potentially. It depends on the variables and how they're carried out, of course. But I think the administration, especially Marco Rubio, the secretary of state, Cuban American, the most prominent of all the Cuban Americans in politics, I think they're quite aware of the dangers of pressing the Cubans too hard and getting the unintended consequences that no one here in Miami or in Washington desires. For example, I think they're wise not to want to have a grand, broad societal breakdown on the island and a humanitarian crisis to match. The Cuban people are close to humanitarian crisis now. I don't think the American leaders want to exacerbate it to the point where there would be another mass seaborne migration of Cubans to South Florida. There have been two or three of those in past decades. And I think that that would be seen as calamitous and unworthy. It would be stoking another humanitarian crisis. So I think there's a sense of caution in Washington about just how much pressure would be appropriate to try to achieve the objectives which the Trump administration has not yet expressed explicitly or clearly what it desires of the Cubans. Economic reform, yes. They've been clear about that. They want to see much more sweeping economic reform. But how much political reform do they want? It's not clear that they know themselves or that they're not stating it yet.
Mccann: So, Richard, can I ask you a question? How much of a strategic threat do you think Cuba is to the Americans?
Dearlove: I don't think, at the moment, it's a strategic threat at all. I mean, it's an autocracy, which I'm assuming is still a threat to its own people internally, or it still has the machinery of control unless that's breaking down. But I think what's significant is the influence that Cuba has exercised ideologically in other parts of Latin America, although that seems to me to be massively in abeyance at the moment. So it's been a thorn in the side of the United States for, well, since the revolution. And, of course, because of its geographic position, I think, a very difficult problem for the Americans to deal with. But my question to Brian really is can he envisage a peaceful political change in Cuba, because in my experience, long term autocracies that have suppressed their populations so effectively, when they implode, it's very, very difficult for the country, you know, to adjust quickly to an alternative political solution. There is a sort of social and economic upheaval, which is very, let's say, destructive of the state of society before it rebuilds itself. So I would be very interested to know with your experience, Brian, how you envisage that change happening. Because it seems to me we're on the cusp now inevitably of some really significant change in Cuba. It doesn't look to me as though the regime is going to survive in its present form. And what could take its place, and how is that going to happen? I mean, the infrastructure of communist parties, of which I have some experience having lived behind the Iron Curtain, is, until it collapses, extraordinarily effective.
Lattell: Well, Richard, I agree with all of your observations. And, you know, I share the same questions and concerns. A useful way of thinking about the Cuban situation at the moment is to compare it to where the Soviet Union was in late 1989 as the Berlin Wall was coming down that November, and then the ensuing year or two as the Soviet Union gradually did collapse. Cuba is really in a dire, dire sort of end of regime situation that has to be managed very carefully. I think Rubio seems to understand that from things that he has said publicly. The president speaks more from, I guess, from his heart or something, but he says things a little bit differently that don't always correlate.
Dearlove: I went to the Soviet Union quite a bit in that period of detente, which was brief after the, you know, implosion of the communist system. And, I mean, what you're saying is fascinating. But in that period, going to Moscow, it was a bit like going to the Wild West. Now the oligarchs were in the process of enriching themselves. They were throwing their weight about. You know, Moscow hotels were full of strange people. They're trying to make a very quick buck. Of course, many of them made massive fortunes as well. Do you envisage that sort of meltdown in the Cuban system?
Lattell: Easily could occur, Richard. It easily could occur. There would be a whole host of Cuban oligarchs emerging under whatever the new system would be, and those oligarchs would emerge from the most powerful institutions on the island, which are the military and security services. Both of those had glory days in the 1970s and 1980s and in far flung countries in Africa and elsewhere in Latin America. But those two institutions now are considerably weaker. They're more frayed and much weaker than and much less funded than they were traditionally. But they should not be underestimated in terms of the residual strength that they still can exercise. And they would be key. The leaders of those institutions would be key in however the transition will be managed on the island and in Washington.
Mccann: Can we talk a little bit about some of the main players here? Because I want to come to talk about Marco Rubio. He's been mentioned a few times in this conversation so far. But Doctor Lattell, you mentioned the president, Miguel Diaz-Canel. How strong is his current position, and what is his relationship with the Castro family?
Lattell: His position is very weak on the island and in the perception of him abroad. In fact, he was close to Raul Castro. He was hand selected by Raul Castro, groomed over a number of years to ultimately assume the position of the presidency. So he was trusted. There was a lot of confidence that he would prove to be a good and reliable president. But all the while, working under the — I think the supreme leader, odd to put that term in the Cuban context, but Raul Castro is at 94 years old, 94 plus. He'll be 95 in June. He is the supreme leader. And the revolution, in their official statements, they seem to acknowledge that in very delicate fashion. They describe Raul as the leader of the revolution. And then in the next phrase, they will mention the president of the Republic of Cuba, Diaz-Canel. I don't think that Raul Castro is making any effort to govern Cuba day by day. I don't think he's sitting in front of a computer screen or sitting in an office with a number of other bureaucrats. But when a major decision needs to be made, Diaz-Canel or his people will check with Raul. They'll want to be sure that they're carrying out the wishes of the, let's call him the supreme leader. The leader of the revolution is the term, the official term that they're using. He seems physically relatively well at 94. I don't know how he is in terms of how he speaks or expresses himself, because there's not much evidence of that. But they defer to him. And I think they will continue to defer to him as these discussions will move forward between the two governments. And of course it's two of his closest relatives who are involved in discussions, as far as we can understand them. Very little is really known about the discussions between the two governments. But two of the leading people involved are Raul's grandson, Raul Guillermo Rodriguez Castro, who has long been Raul Castro's personal bodyguard. And then the other is Raul's only son, Alejandro Castro Espin. So these two are principal spokespeople for him in whatever is going on in the discussions, such as they are or such as they may be. It's very hard to know that given the enormous, the almost exclusive now concentration of policymakers in Washington on the war in Iran, the Cuba issue was really kind of on the side for the time being.
Mccann: And would either of those two men that you've just talked about there, the Castro family, I suppose, would they play any part in the future of Cuba in your view?
Lattell: Not necessarily. No. I wouldn't rule it out. More likely Raul's son, Castro Espin. More likely him. He's a senior military and intelligence officer and he could continue in an influential position. The grandson may not have such promise for political office. There is, however, another relative of the Castros. There are a lot of Castros. It's a very, very large family. There were nine Castro siblings and half siblings. And the oldest sister of Fidel and Raul Castro, her name was Angela. And it's a grandson of hers who has now become very prominent as the vice premier and simultaneously a very senior minister for economics in the government. His name is Oscar Perez Oliva Fraga. He is becoming more and more of a seemingly moderate voice. He might emerge in due course as a moderate voice with Castro family DNA and credentials who could be a transitional figure.
Dearlove: Brian, there are aspects of the regime which, if it implodes, would worry me. Maybe I can mention two. Obviously, first is Cuban intelligence, which has been quite a formidable organization and has certainly made itself felt not only in the United States but more widely. And you mentioned going back to Africa, and one remembers its support for various revolutionary movements in Africa. The other issue, the Cubans were very sophisticated in research on biological warfare, and, you know, they had some quite disturbing capabilities in laboratories, which certainly were assisting the Russians in these areas. What happens to all of that sort of machinery if there's a political change? Does it just, you know, disappear? Is it negotiated away? Is it handed over to the Americans? You know, what about the archives of Cuban intelligence? Think of the stuff stashed in there, which would be of massive interest not only to the United States, but to a number of other countries.
Lattell: I can't wait to get into those Cuban intelligence archives. Richard, you may know — I mean, Kate mentioned one of my books, Fidel Castro's Secrets. It's really an expose of Cuban intelligence successes and especially remarkable successes, I must say with some embarrassment, against the CIA. It's a detailed story. I based it on masses and masses of declassified American intelligence and other government documents. But Richard, I completely agree with you. This would be a great concern. And what I would hope as an individual, I don't speak for anyone, I'm an independent analyst now, I would hope that pretty soon, once any kind of significant and promising negotiations are conducted between the two governments, that there would be a separate track opened between our intelligence and their intelligence to help to mollify concerns like the ones you've expressed. After all, that sort of thing did happen between US intelligence and Soviet intelligence in that period of time after the Berlin Wall came down. And when President Obama implemented his rapprochement, we opened embassies in both countries, etcetera, etcetera, the CIA director, John Brennan, Obama's CIA director, went down to Cuba and sat down with Cuban intelligence officers. And he's hardly said anything about it, but that much he has said. And the meeting did not result in much of anything, because he was confronting across the table very, very hard line recalcitrant Cuban intelligence officers. But my position is that that ought to be tried again at an appropriate time when it seems like it might result in better outcomes.
Dearlove: You probably remember this character, but General Delgado was very, very keen for me to visit Cuba, and it's one of my great regrets that I never managed to fulfill the invitation. And he used to send me boxes of cigars for Christmas. As I don't smoke, they ended up in the hands of other people.
Lattell: Yeah. That sounds like a bribe to me. Well, you know, I've been to Cuba twice. Not recently, they won't give me a visa. So I'm persona non grata now in Cuba. They don't like my books or my other writings. But I look forward to going to Cuba again, under a new, more favorable regime whenever that might evolve.
Dearlove: I suppose there's the bigger question of the — if the government in Cuba does change, I mean, the cultural impact on the southern part of the United States, on Florida in particular, where you have this massive Cuban diaspora. I mean, how do you envisage, you know, a relationship which, let's say if you take a ten year time frame, it could completely transform Cuba into a totally different sort of society where — I'm not saying it becomes a state of the union, but it certainly would benefit from its proximity to the American economy.
Lattell: I think that's a very likely eventual outcome. It's going to take quite a while and quite a lot of investment and quite a lot of skilled interventions by people here in Miami and elsewhere. But it's going to take a while because Cuba's economy is just so fractured, so ruptured. It's because during all of those sixty seven or eight years of communism, very little was invested in the infrastructure of the island. The infrastructure will have to be almost completely redone. The agricultural sector is a total calamity. The Cubans don't even produce enough sugar for their own consumption anymore. Imagine, the country that was the world's leading producer of sugar. So agriculture is just a disaster. And that's true throughout the economy. So it's going to take a long time. But I think, yes, it could certainly happen. And there'll certainly be a great motivation here in Miami in the Cuban diaspora, as you said, to work on rebuilding, renewing Cuba to the way they remembered it, perhaps.
Mccann: What drives Marco Rubio in this, Doctor Lattell? Because we know that Marco Rubio has had a keen interest. He is in some ways the one in the administration who's pushing policy in this direction. What is driving him, do you think?
Lattell: Well, he has an abiding desire to see the communist regime supplanted. And I think that he never was too willing to discuss exactly what he might have meant by that in all of the years as he rose up into American — first Florida and then American national politics. But now, as he probably thinks — I'll have to, I'm really just going to have to get into his head — but now as he thinks about supplanting the Cuban communist regime, I think he's probably become more wary of understanding the leverage, the passive leverage that the Cubans really have on these issues. He does not want the country to spiral into a humanitarian crisis. There are too many people here in Miami, friends and family and colleagues of his, who would be horrified by that happening on the island as it would be affecting their own families. I'm speculating, but I think that his perspective has become more moderate. He does want to see the communist regime supplanted, and I choose that verb carefully.
Mccann: And then there's a question of how to accomplish that. We like to ask all of our guests on this program, on this podcast, one final question because it is called One Decision. So what One Decision are you keeping an eye out from the American side, from the Cuban side? What's the one moment that you are watching for as we talk about this issue?
Lattell: Well, that's a good question. From the Cuban side, I would be looking for discussions on the island about finding a way to preemptively curtail the presidential term of Diaz-Canel. The Cuban government could easily, through whatever machinations they care, find a way of replacing him with a successor. Someone ostensibly and probably objectively more moderate, more pragmatic. And that would be possibly the man I mentioned earlier, the grandson of Fidel and Raul's sister Angela, who is now the vice premier and the minister for economics. His name is Oscar Perez Oliva Fraga. But he is the grandson of Angela Castro, the eldest sister of Raul and Fidel. So that is a possibility that I'm imagining that is of attraction to policymakers in Washington. And maybe in Cuba as well, especially as their fuel supplies diminish and will be expended. And then Havana and the entire island will be in greater than just intermittent blackouts, but they'll be in total blackouts.
Dearlove: Just to follow up your reply, Brian, which is very interesting, that implies that there is no organized opposition left in Cuba. So the alternatives are going to come from within the current structures rather than any new sort of leadership or initiative spontaneously arising elsewhere in the country.
Lattell: Yes. Regrettably, that is true, Richard. The opposition on the island is pretty thin, pretty sparse. There are a few wonderful individuals, heroic and brave individuals, who are very articulate in opposition, but also very restrained. Otherwise, they'd be in prison. The other thing that's very sad is that about 2,000,000 Cubans have fled the country over the last few years. So the population is hemorrhaging and diminishing. And in that population, of course, probably a majority are probably much younger Cubans who would be in the forefront of any opposition. So there are so many variables and so many things for American leaders to be concerned about that my hope is that they are taking all of these variables into consideration.
Mccann: Well, Doctor Brian Lattell, thank you so much for giving us your time. It's been really fascinating to get your insight on what, I think you're right, is a bit of a forgotten issue at the moment, but I have no doubt we'll come to the fore once again. So thank you very much for taking us through it.
Lattell: Thank you very much. Sir Richard, very nice to spend the time with you.
Dearlove: Thank you, Brian.
ANALYSIS WITH SIR RICHARD DEARLOVE
Mccann: Well, Sir Richard, I thought that was a really interesting conversation with Doctor Lattell, partly because I just don't know that much about really what's going on inside Cuba. I suppose none of us do. It's quite hard to get that intricate knowledge and that understanding of who's up and who's down and who the power players are. But, I mean, it sounds like from what he's saying, it's going to become very important.
Dearlove: I absolutely agree with you. And I think what's striking talking to him is how far gone Cuba is and what a parlous state it's in. And, you know, seeing this in perspective, it's a huge issue for the United States because the questions you asked at the beginning indicated if they get it wrong, they create a whole lot of problems, particularly in a mass immigration into the southern United States, which you wouldn't be able to stop because they would come in droves. Strangely, it's exactly the same sort of problems that arise in talking about North Korea and the future of North Korea, because I know from my own experience that the communist Chinese government was very, very worried about political stability, maybe not now, but in the past in North Korea because of the waves of immigrants that they would get into the surrounding part of China. And I think, you know, these long term communist regimes, when things go wrong, working out what the solutions will be and how fast societies can change is fascinating. I mean, in my own experience, those countries that were relatively successful were places like Poland and Czechoslovakia. But they had a sophisticated industrial infrastructure, and they had been at one point in their history in the twentieth century quite developed. And there was enough left, as it were, for them to remember what they had been and not completely disintegrate when the governments changed. But I think in Cuba's case, it's a really different story. And I think it's very hard to imagine how this political change, which seems to me almost inevitable from what Brian is saying, is going to happen.
Mccann: I totally agree. And I found it quite sad actually listening to him talk about the fact that so many young Cubans have already left actually, and how that must feel. Because essentially, what you're saying is you're giving up on your country, and you're saying, we're not going to be able to affect change here, not really very quickly, and so we're going to leave. And as you say, it's got implications for America and other countries, but it's also got big implications for the heart of a nation and what Cuba is and would ever be. And I suppose that in and of itself is quite sad. I also found it fascinating to hear Doctor Lattell say that he thinks that Marco Rubio's views have changed when he's been confronted with the reality and kind of looking at Cuba now in a very different light. I just wonder what that will mean given we still hear from Donald Trump things like, I can take Cuba. I can do what I want with it. You know, it's still very similar rhetoric from the president himself. So I suppose it's a bit of a watch and wait to see after Iran what happens next when it comes to Cuba and a possible takeover.
Dearlove: I think caution is going to be the watchword. It's a hell of a lot closer to home for the Americans than Iran is. And for that matter, Venezuela. But, I mean, Venezuela's got a big diaspora — a lot in Spain and a lot in the United States now because a lot of the sort of educated wealthy families left. But, I mean, Venezuela's a different prospect because it's so much more sophisticated than the, as it were, the radical revolution or whatever you call it, when Chavez took over, you know, happened relatively recently. It doesn't have that long history that the Cuban revolution has going back to 1959. So I think the whole issue is absolutely extraordinary. And I mean, I can certainly recall the influence that Cuba exercised, for example, in Angola in Africa during the civil war there, its impact in lots of developing countries, and the sort of radical ideological and military influence Cuba exercised in Africa and in Latin America. And this is, you know, disappearing from the map. It's incredible.
Mccann: Yeah. It really is. Well, we hope that you found the episode interesting. You got something out of it and maybe even learned something. Thanks very much for being with us. Join us on Tuesday for One Decision in Brief where we will analyze whatever the biggest topic of the day is. Who knows? It could be Iran. It might well be something else. And for more conversations with leading decision makers and thinkers, you can find more on 1decision.com and our YouTube page where you'll also find some of our short explainers. I'm Kate McCann, and today I was joined by Sir Richard Dearlove. Thanks very much for listening.
