Hosted by Christina Ruffini and Sir Richard Dearlove
Guest
Episode Summary
On this week’s One Decision In Brief, hosts Kate McCann and Sir Richard Dearlove, former MI6 Chief, examine the security risks posed by major Chinese companies like Alibaba. The hosts discuss a recent White House memo alleging that Alibaba provided tech support for Chinese military operations against countries, including the US. They explore what China’s national security laws mean for data access and the dangers posed by its infrastructure control. They also discuss the UK’s experience with Huawei and Europe's concern about commercial dependencies on China. The episode sheds light on the case of imprisoned Hong Kong Democracy activist and British national Jimmy Lai, raising questions about how the West should further engage with Beijing.
Episode produced by Situation Room Studios. Original music composed and produced by Leo Sidran.
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Transcript
INTRODUCTION
Mccann: Hello and welcome to One Decision in Brief. I'm Kate McCann and I'm joined today by my co-host Sir Richard Dearlove. Hi Sir Richard, how are you doing?
Dearlove: I'm fine Kate, how are you?
Mccann: I'm good. Thank you. I'm good. There's lots to talk about at the moment. Thought maybe we could pick over some of the issues with China today, if you're up for that, because I know you care deeply about it and there is so much going on when it comes to China and Chinese influence. That it seems like a good thing to try and have a think about.
Dearlove: Yeah, important, and at the moment we keep getting distracted by Ukraine, but China is just as important as a topic, if not more so in the medium term anyway.
CHINESE COMPANIES AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY LAW
Mccann: Well, shall we start? Because, you know, there was a story around over the last couple of weeks, which we've seen versions of this story before, but I thought it'd be worth picking your brain a bit because people may not realize the impact and the reach that China has when it comes to Chinese companies. And we talk about Chinese companies and we talk about hacking, cyber hacking. We talk about them reaching into areas where they ought not to be. But this is a slightly different story. This was about a White House memo that alleged that Alibaba, which is a sort of a huge company, was providing tech support for Chinese military operations against targets in the US. Now Alibaba has denied this, said it's completely false. Others have refused to comment, other interested parties have refused to comment. It is obviously a leak. But it speaks to a wider issue here, which is how Chinese companies interact with the Chinese state. For people who don't know, what exactly are they obligated to do? There is a security law in China.
Dearlove: Which obliges companies without any possibility of opting out to support the state and act in the interests of the state in terms of their assets or whatever if they're requested to do so by the government. So they have no option to refuse. They just can't do that. So essentially, every Chinese company fits into this massive national security structure and effectively a part of the Chinese state if they're requested to act in that way. And then if you get a company like Alibaba run by Jack Ma, they are the largest. They're the sort of an Amazon type company in China and they collect massive amounts of data. And that's not just in China, it's overseas as well. And I'm pretty sure that the White House will have leaked this absolutely deliberately to make sure that, you know, people understand what the dangers are, what the options are for these huge Chinese companies. And I think the story in this instance is all that data, including private addresses, private emails, credit scores, all these other things have been passed to the Chinese government, Chinese People's Republic, the communist leadership, have got all of this material from Alibaba. And I mean, we've been around this track before, for example, with Huawei in the UK, you know, saying of course we wouldn't compromise British national security, you know, if we're doing 5G, of course it's complete rubbish. They have no option. They have to help the Chinese state if they're asked to do it. It's as simple as that.
Mccann: Alibaba provides AI services, and they are very popular in the US. And there was some real worry about what that might mean for US national security. Does this rule mean that Chinese politicians, the Chinese Communist Party, has access whenever it wants into the back end of these companies' systems? Or does it mean that Chinese government officials can obligate these companies to hand over data when requested?
Dearlove: I think it's probably the second rather than the first. I think if you're in a state of open conflict, it would be the first. But at the current situation, I think it's if a request is made. Clearly, in this instance, what the White House memo seems to be saying is a request was made, and that material was handed over. So, that's the reality really.
BACKDOORS AND CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE
Mccann: And it's often called a backdoor into these systems, and as you sort of referenced Huawei, which was the well, the well discussed case in the UK of Huawei providing internet, computing, cables, services to the UK government on large scale projects. And it was the rollout of 4G that Huawei were going to be involved in that there was some real concern that basically it would leave the UK's critical infrastructure network open to a Chinese backdoor. And I know that that's something that you have raised before in relation to electric vehicles, relation to wind farms. People are very concerned about Chinese access into the data sets and infrastructure in that way. I mean, in the end, Huawei was stripped out of the 4G network, but it was a lot of back and forth in government, and I believe that they ended up still providing some CCTV networks for some time after that. How often do you think China really is using the access it technically has from these companies? How worried should we be about it?
Dearlove: Well, we should be extremely worried because the problem is not theoretical, it's actual, and you know the Chinese can interfere with critical national infrastructure where they've been the manufacturer of the equipment anytime they choose. And I think at the moment, we're not in that confrontational situation with China, but you can easily imagine one, and the dangers are really really real. I mean I've just read a UK China expert called Charles Parton has just given congressional testimony in the United States about this issue on the theme of what's called cellular modules, the Internet of Things. And he's making it absolutely clear that the more we buy kit, which is of Chinese manufacture with these cellular modules in them, whether it's electric vehicles, switching mechanisms in the grid, whether it's the computers that control windmills, can list a whole range of things. These can be reprogrammed from China at the throw of a switch, and you know we could find large chunks of everything we depend on to live our very comfortable modern lives suddenly not working. It's as simple as that, and I think it, you know, the Chinese have a policy of creating commercial dependencies which at some point in the future they can exploit. Let me explain what happened in Ukraine. When the Russians swept into some of the grain growing land in Eastern Ukraine in the Luhansk region, they pinched or stole a whole lot of these very sophisticated John Deere tractors. All of those tractors were immobilized by John Deere, the manufacturer, using the same technology, saying that the Russians couldn't use them. So it can't be done and it has been done. It can be done. It has been done. And, you know, that was done by the manufacturer against the Russians in Ukraine, and it worked.
JIMMY LAI AND THE UK'S RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA
Mccann: I mean, are so many different directions we could go to on China, but one of the things that has come up in the UK, apart from the new Chinese super embassy, is Jimmy Lai, who is, you know, this democracy campaigner, he ran a newspaper, he's been, you know, he's been found guilty of sedition. And there is some real controversy about what is happening to Jimmy Lai, he's a British national, and what the UK government is doing and has done to intervene in that case. We know now that Keir Starmer, the prime minister, is going to go to China on a visit. Do you think that visit should go ahead? Is it the right time for a visit to China? What possibly could he achieve from it?
Dearlove: Well, I'm sort of skeptical that he'll achieve very much, and I think it's the wrong time maybe to get into a sort of political clinch with China. We're in an economic clinch with them anyway. Do we honestly think that a prime ministerial visit is gonna change the value of the economic relationship? But you only got to look at Australia, which has been pretty hostile to China but has a very close commercial relationship on all sorts of issues, and they've managed more or less to keep that going intact despite having difficult political relations. I think it's pretty unwise. I think it's the right time for the prime minister to do this, and we have to be, you know, very careful of how we deal with this regime. I mean, I'm not in favor of making policy, national policy, over the issue of one person, if you see what I mean, however strongly injustices may be. But a lot of people would disagree with me on that, and I would understand exactly why. And the case in Hong Kong now, he's been treated appallingly. It's pure political persecution. It's a violation of the joint declaration, which the Chinese ceased to respect quite a long time ago, and it shows how terrified the Chinese communist leadership is of the seeds of democracy that sometimes show green shoots in Hong Kong, and Jimmy Lai is a very good example of that. But the poor guy is in bad health. He's, I think, 78 years old. He could be facing a life sentence. And I mean, the injustice is just terrifying because all he's done is, as it were, express his democratic views.
Mccann: Would you go to China now? Do you think you'd be able to get in?
Dearlove: I think it is a very good question, because they would certainly scrutinize my visa application and they would say, well, maybe we should let him in and talk to him.
Mccann: Well, you'd get let in and then taken somewhere.
Dearlove: Well, I think they'd be quite careful given my, I don't mean this in my past seniority, my past seniority and prominence. It would be a pretty extreme thing to do, but I'm not sure, you know, China's on my holiday list, but I mean it's ironical really because the Chinese were up until quite recently, they weren't I mean, I haven't done it now, but I mean, I was being invited through an intermediary, you know, actually through a Korean, very highly placed Korean friend, and they were urging me to go back on an all expenses paid visit to China. And let's put it like this, the government in the UK were not enthusiastic.
Mccann: Well that's probably because they were trying to recruit you as a spy.
Dearlove: Well, they tried to recruit everybody. I mean, I could go around all sorts of people who I know that they tried to recruit, some of whom have actually written about it. And, yeah, they come after you with massive blandishments that look as though they're innocent, but of course are not. You've got to really be alive to how the Chinese operate, and I think I know very well how they operate.
Mccann: Yeah. Never accept a free lunch.
Dearlove: Never accept a free lunch. Yes.
Mccann: I wonder if we'll ever get back to a relationship like that again. What do you think?
Dearlove: Not unless there is a real political change in China, and by that I don't mean the fall of the government. I mean a change in attitude in terms of the Chinese leadership. But at the moment, I think they are difficult, very difficult to deal with. And I think we should just be hard nosed in return. That's why the Chinese understand you if you're, you know, as hard nosed as they are. They'll do a bargain, they'll do a deal, and I think it's important that we don't show that we're weak on these issues.
Mccann: Yeah. I think everybody would agree with that. It's been great chatting to you. There's lots more we could say, and there's lots more we will say in the new year. You never know. We might take ourselves on tour to China if we get let in. So, Richard, have a lovely day.
Dearlove: Yep. Same to you, Kate. All the very best. Bye.
Mccann: I'll see you later. That's it for this week's One Decision in Brief. Of course, stay tuned to our regularly scheduled episode that's out on Thursday, and there's plenty more for you on 1decision.com and on our YouTube page where you will find lots of shorts, explainers, and full length episodes to keep you busy. Thanks for listening.
