I Will Save Them Myself

Note: this podcast contains explicit content.

Hosted by Christina Ruffini and Sir Richard Dearlove

Guest

Shawn VanDiver

Shawn VanDiver's friend was on a mountain surrounded by the Taliban, and Shawn VanDiver took action to save the friend.

Episode Summary

Shawn VanDiver’s friend was on a mountain, surrounded by Taliban. He said goodbye. The rest is (amazing) history.

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Transcript

COLD OPEN

VAN DIVER [0:01]
Coming up on One Decision. There was a very real and clear and present danger for anybody who served alongside us, and we've got tons of them left there now because of our broken bureaucratic processes. People care. People really care about this. And what's unique about this is that it's, I like to say this is the most American thing that's ever happened.

INTRODUCTION

Kosinski: Hello. Welcome back to One Decision, where we look at the good, bad, and excruciating decisions. Sometimes people take them all on their own. I'm Michelle Kosinski. Today, we talked to a veteran who saw heroes, not American ones either, being left behind in the fall of Afghanistan and who could not not do something about it. His name is Sean Van Diver. But first, let's check in with Britain's man of action and former spymaster, Sir Richard Dearlove.

Dearlove: Greetings. Thank you, Michelle. Very nice to see you again, or to be speaking to you again, I should say.

Kosinski: You know, when we last spoke about Afghanistan, it was about all we feared could happen. It all happened.

Dearlove: Yeah. It was shocking. And, you know, I felt a degree of personal involvement because, I mean, I was involved way back, at the start of the crisis in Afghanistan back in when Western troops went first into the countries.

Kosinski: And, of course, getting people out of there was a potentially deadly proposition for those tens of thousands of Afghans who had risked their lives for years helping Western forces, the interpreters, fixers. I remember the ones that I worked with at NBC. They had difficult lives to begin with, and I don't know where they are today.

Dearlove: I can't understand, you know, why more forethought wasn't given over a long period of time to the issue of evacuation. And, of course, using that airport in the city made the whole question of access far more difficult. Because if they had kept the airport at Bagram, you know, which had two runways away from the urban areas. Okay. You've still got to get out there, but it just could have been done in a much more organized fashion. But, of course, the collapse of the country was so rapid. And, I mean, it was terrible, absolutely terrible. Did you watch any of the testimony that the secretary of state gave before congress? I frankly found it just too difficult. I'm sorry to say it was so incompetent.

Kosinski: So in the midst of this, it has been remarkable to see private groups gather the intel, the contacts, and the resources to get people out of there.

Dearlove: I'm tremendously in awe of these individuals who were completely able to improvise these escape routes and evacuations and get people into convoys that then, you know, drove through Afghanistan to the Pakistani border, to the Tajikistan border. I mean, it's incredible, really, to see that. It's heartrending what people have been through. And there has been evidence of the Taliban retaliating, killing people. So I, god knows what's gonna happen. The whole economy is about to implode. People left behind who can't get to their bank accounts, can't withdraw money. I just wonder how they're surviving.

Kosinski: Do you have any optimism for the future that the Taliban can run things?

Dearlove: I suppose there's a remote possibility that they may be able to put together some sort of basically functioning government. But, I mean, it's quite clear that the way that women are gonna be treated is, in particular, you know, is different from the standards that we expect in the West. And I was listening to a feminist Islamic scholar recently, you know, and, you know, she said that if you look carefully at the Quran, none of the justifications for the Taliban's attitude can be found in the Quran at all. So one gets into very complex ideological religious territory, and, clearly, one cannot really be very optimistic about what's gonna happen in the country.

Kosinski: Agreed.

Dearlove: I think over a twenty year period, we had created an obligation, which in a way, in my view, we should have fulfilled. And that means taking decisions not influenced by domestic political considerations. And I'm not even sure it was necessary to leave. You know, there could have been a continuing NATO commitment to the Afghan government, which could have been, you know, durable over time, I think.

Kosinski: Who do you think is more at fault? The Trump administration for making this out deal with the Taliban or the Biden administration for implementing it as shoddily as it did?

Dearlove: Both. I don't think. I mean, I think it was a bad deal that Trump negotiated, and it was a bad implementation that Biden followed through. I think Biden should have dumped the negotiation that he inherited and maybe started again, which would have been possible. I mean, the crucial thing was the withdrawal of American air power, and that could have continued. I'm, and you're talking to someone who was opposed from the beginning. And there were a group of us in the British government at the time who were strongly opposed to any large scale military deployment. We wanted to do it on the basis of small advisory, mainly special forces teams in each of the provinces, working with the tribal leaders to keep our, as it were, security concerns under control, but not to fundamentally change Afghanistan. I mean, I went to Russia on behalf of the British government to talk to the Russian military intelligence, the GRU. And, I mean, their clear advice was don't get heavily involved militarily, because look what happened, you know, to the power of the Russian military. And they said, over time, the same thing will happen to you. And then somewhere, Blair took a decision along with the US, and that was towards the end of 2004, the policy changed, and we were committed to initial deployment of 10,000 troops and helicopters and hardware and all the rest.

Kosinski: For sure. It's a tragedy. I feel like the icing on the foul cake in the past few weeks was then the US for half a day tracking that poor aid worker and then droning him and his family thinking that the water that he was delivering was explosives.

Dearlove: I would just wonder how it was that they got that so wrong.

Kosinski: How egregious would you say that failure of intelligence was? Or, you know, something that could easily be mistaken when you're watching someone's movements from a satellite?

Dearlove: Well, I think that could be easily mistaken, particularly if you're convinced that your informant, you know, has given you accurate information, and there might be all sorts of reasons why you feel that. But, you know, in a complex tribal society, you can easily be misled.

INTERVIEW: SEAN VAN DIVER

Kosinski: So many decisions by so many players over decades leading to today. Let's talk now to someone who made a very personal decision in this. Sean Van Diver, twelve year Navy veteran in San Diego, a consultant by day, but his passion project is foreign policy, which suddenly took an incredible turn. Hi, Sean. Welcome to the podcast. VAN DIVER [9:13]
Hi. Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I'm really excited to be here.

Kosinski: As a veteran, Sean had long been adamant about standing by all those people overseas who had served American troops, who were then eligible for these special immigrant visas to come to America, or SIVs. For nearly a decade, he has advocated for them. VAN DIVER [9:32]
I've been alarmed by the SIV issue since 2013. And frankly, no administration has done a great job on SIV, which is frankly really disappointing because there's so many implications that come with not keeping our promises and not taking care of our friends and allies who stood by us and fought alongside us against their own countrymen.

Kosinski: Through Sean's work, he became good friends with a man nicknamed Lucky, an Afghan interpreter for the US during the war who had been able to move to San Diego in 2016 on one of those special visas. But in August, Lucky had journeyed back home to Afghanistan for what he felt would be the last time he could see it. VAN DIVER [10:13]
The Taliban's approach. So I texted him. Didn't hear back for a couple days. And then when I did hear back, I knew that we needed to get his family out as fast as possible because it was clear from the news that Kabul was gonna fall.

Kosinski: Tell me how you were feeling when you were watching this. I remember it was days before the Taliban really swept up to the capital. I was talking to an Afghan government official, one of the ministers, and he was saying, oh, well, we definitely have the capacity. It's all gonna come together. And I was pressing him on that just like, what do you mean? Like, they're basically at Kabul's door. Like, what are you saying? VAN DIVER [11:06]
I had friends on the ground in Afghanistan, Lucky and others, who were telling me like, hey, this is getting very dangerous here. It was very clear that that reality was not reflected in the public statements by our government or any government.

Kosinski: How did you feel knowing that people were trapped there? VAN DIVER [11:33]
We make a promise to somebody. We tell them that if you serve with us for a year, you'll be able to come over to the United States and become an American. And instead what happened was we made that promise and then threw roadblock after roadblock after roadblock in their way. And what we see now is a direct result of that.

Kosinski: So few people have actually spent time in Afghanistan to see it up close for one thing, but then they don't really understand the risks that these people were taking to work for the US military. Describe what that's like for them. VAN DIVER [11:55]
What would happen is we had these forward operating bases all throughout Afghanistan to make sure that we were able to further American interests. We would send our folks around to recruit these young men and women to work on our behalf. And in every forward operating base that we closed, people kind of just were stuck there, right? So in the case of one of my friends, he moved to Dubai for three years while his SIV paperwork processed, and because he couldn't work in Afghanistan, he would be killed. He got married on my birthday in 2016 in Afghanistan. And on that day, somebody with the same name as him and another one of his friends were killed in his village. And it wasn't a coincidence. It was because the Taliban had found out that he had come back to get married. Luckily, he and his wife were able to make it out. But there was a very real and clear and present danger for anybody who served alongside us. And we've got tons of them left there now because of our broken bureaucratic processes.

Kosinski: When you're there, to know these people that you're describing even as a journalist, and then you have to leave and you just feel so guilty. What is it about Lucky and who he is that really struck a chord with you? VAN DIVER [13:15]
I met Lucky at a press conference. He had been through so much in his life. His name is Lucky because he got blown up twice, and made it through with all of his fingers and toes and everything else. What struck me is that he has a deep civic pride for both Afghanistan and the US. We didn't know then that he would be going back to Afghanistan to take care of his wife or take care of his mom and introduce his baby, his four month at the time, his four month old baby to his family in Afghanistan and say goodbye to the country. And he thought he was gonna make it out on August 28. And that's kind of what got me involved and was the impetus for all of the good work that I've been a part of here.

Kosinski: At what moment did you say, it's go time. I need to act. VAN DIVER [14:05]
I was sitting at my computer, the computer I'm sitting at now, and it was Saturday morning, and I get this text message from Lucky that says, brother, sorry I haven't been in touch. I had to walk to the top of a mountain in Urgun. The Taliban has us surrounded. We're running out of ammo. He went back there to save his country, his villagers and his family there, and didn't tell his wife, didn't tell anybody that he was going to Urgun. So he went down there to fight alongside his villagers and try to get some of them out. We ended the conversation with him saying, brother, I don't know that I'm gonna make it out. Will you please grant me my last wish and help me get my family out. Oh my god. Yeah. It was horrible. He didn't see my messages for two days. It was heart wrenching. So I spent Saturday sobbing and trying to figure out, like, asking around for, you know, five or ten K here or there from just a couple people to raise the money that would be required to get four people out of a war zone so that when his family woke up, we'd be able to say, hey, you're good to go to the airport, right? Let's get you there now. Well, by the time everybody woke up, Kabul had fallen and the airport was not operating commercial air anymore. So then I started texting members of congress that I know asking what the options are, what can we do.

Kosinski: Through Sean's contacts in the Truman National Security Project, he had founded the San Diego branch, he teamed up with people who were trying to charter flights out. With others, they crafted a secure form online where Afghans could upload their documents in case later they had to burn them to hide from the Taliban. He connected with other veterans, including Jack McCain, the late senator John McCain's son. And virtually overnight, they raised $4,000,000 in pledges. Their little movement, born out of panic, was taking off. VAN DIVER [16:01]
People care. People really care about this. And what's unique about this is that, I like to say this is the most American thing that's ever happened. Jack and I couldn't be more different. He comes from Republican royalty. I'm a Democrat. Nobody. He's a helicopter pilot. My job in the Navy was, the motto was, if it flies, it dies. He's an officer. I'm enlisted. And the differences go on, but there was no daylight between us on this. We believe that because we made these promises, we have an obligation. We've served alongside these folks. Jack served over there and trained a bunch of Afghan Air Force pilots. I didn't serve over there. I served all over the place where we had translators. So we stood up a little op center in my house. I think it must have been Monday night. And then Tuesday, I get a message from Lucky at 6AM. And he's like, brother, I made it to Kabul. Sorry. I've been unable to contact you. Like, what? How are you alive? And one thing about Lucky is that he had just gotten his commercial driver's license here in California. He was starting a business, a truck driving business, so he could provide for his family. So he took this jingle truck that had a fuel tank in the back and dressed up like a service provider and went through all these Taliban checkpoints. This guy's with grease all over him and he said he smelled really bad. He had hidden all of his documents and his phone and all that, talked his way through Taliban checkpoints because he's very charismatic and got to Kabul. So that day is when we stood up our ops center here. It was a really good day. We felt like we were making a difference, and there was a lot of ups and downs during this process, but that just meant that Lucky was in Kabul now. Right? And the hard part began. So he went to the airport and stood out there for fourteen hours and didn't get in with his wife, his eight month old American citizen baby, and his three year old daughter. Everybody in his group was either a green card holder or an American citizen, and they still couldn't get through the gate because of the throngs of folks.

Kosinski: Lucky, again living up to his nickname, managed to get his family on a military helicopter, wait at an airbase for eighteen more hours to fly to Doha, a few more days for a flight to Germany, four more days to get to Washington, DC. VAN DIVER [18:35]
Once they got to Dulles, it took them fourteen hours in immigration to get through. It's pretty wild. And then they were kind of on their own to get home, which is insane. So I got him a hotel. He could have asked for any five star meal. I would have, Jose Andres that catered himself. Like, we would have done anything for him, and he just wanted Pizza Hut. So I sent him Pizza Hut, and then I booked him and his family flights to Dallas where his brother-in-law lives.

Kosinski: Then two days after that, we flew him to San Diego. There are tears in my eyes listening to this. Well, it gets better. A team of former interpreters and officials met the family at the airport, celebrated with them. Later, the San Diego Padres and a member of Congress took everyone to a baseball game. The people behind us bought these folks baseball caps. VAN DIVER [19:30]
And I wanna talk for a second about that piece and about how this thing is the most American thing that I've ever seen. We saw people from all walks of life, all ideologies, and they said, we're going to get this thing done.

Kosinski: So once you get Lucky and his family out, how are you then continuing to do this? What was the process even? VAN DIVER [19:54]
This is a total team effort. So there's folks that have intelligence operations on the ground that are sharing information across folks who have transportation help on the ground, or folks who have networks of Afghans that they've been friends with for years. And there's folks that are coordinating charter flights, and there's folks that have friends who were marines at the gate and a litany of just digitally enabled communication across a matrix of capability. And then also, there's not a single person that got out without some sort of government support. And so while there's been a lot of talk about how government has failed in this, the resettlement organizations, the State Department, and a lot of the key players in between here have been gutted. And so their capacity has been greatly diminished and timelines were put into place. So it was kind of a perfect storm of terrible that resulted in what happened here. And also, the US government was able to evacuate 120,000 people. So now what is resulting here is the need and the desire and frankly, a new way of doing business, which is interesting because government has never needed what these private groups have to offer, which is data and real time field intelligence and all these other things. They've kind of had it on their own. And so working together with government has been kind of the main story here, right? Like these groups being able to work alongside government partners in unofficial and official capacities, each group playing their role amidst the chaos and to quiet the chaos has resulted in better outcomes for Afghans.

Kosinski: It bothers me that the government, to get some of these people out, really needed to work with you guys. VAN DIVER [22:06]
I think it bothers everybody. Right? We wish that this was better. We wish that the world was in a better place. But I think that focusing on the positive, and look, it's not nothing that government is embracing these private orgs and wanting to engage with us. And that added capacity is not nothing. Right? It is important that we look at this digital workforce as what it is. Added capacity of folks who have a little bit of knowledge of how to operate in these environments. And I hope that that comes out of this as a new capability for State or DOD or any other government agency that would benefit from one of these.

Kosinski: I agree. I agree. But don't you kind of wish that when it comes to this, like life or death for some of these people, that you go to your military or your state department with help, and then they're like, oh, we got this. We got that. Like, we don't, we have so many people. We don't need help of outside organizations. That would be ideal, really. VAN DIVER [23:15]
That would be ideal. But you know, we're lucky to live in the United States where that's happened a lot, right? And there's plenty of other places around the world that that's just not the case. Yeah, for sure. Look, we're living in a time where the phone that I'm holding in my hand right here has more processing power than the computers that calculated how to get ordnance on target on my first ship.

Kosinski: That's great. How many people was your group able to get out and how many are you still trying to get out? VAN DIVER [23:49]
So tracking those numbers is hard, but I think we're getting to a better place now. About 5,000 people we think we've helped and certainly tens of thousands of names collected in forms to help them. We've also stood up microgrants for folks that are not in the resettlement process, but folks like Lucky and Nasad and Aziz, they're trying to get on their feet. But we know there are at least thousands of people there that would like to get out. But what was the best process for getting people out of there? We'd compare what was working, what wasn't working. We would discuss things that we were seeing that were suspicious and we thought maybe were traps, but there was no best way. Every day it changed. So at some point, it was getting people to the gate and getting in touch with marines at the gate. You've heard of Task Force Pineapple. They were working within government and without to ensure that the folks they were trying to get into the gate knew to say pineapple or knew to show a picture of a pineapple and get in. Other days, it was getting people on buses and getting a caravan through. We collapsed all of the various lists so there could be one source of truth and the Afghans weren't being asked to submit their names a hundred different ways, any one of which could have been compromised. And so all that groundwork, the intel collection, then essentially the professional services over here.

Kosinski: Got it. It just seems like it's so hard to imagine, like, having somebody in a house somewhere outside Kabul or inside Kabul and then working from San Diego, being able to get them either into the airport or out of the country, to me, it's like a miracle you were able to get anybody out of there. VAN DIVER [25:40]
That's right. It is pretty wild. It's complicated. You can't just call somebody up and say, hey, can I borrow your plane? And they just land it and then leave, right? You have to get permission to land. You have to get insurance, war and risk insurance or war risk, yeah, WRI. You have to get secure permission to land somewhere else. And that country has to be willing to take in whoever's on that plane.

Kosinski: You mentioned you had good days and bad days. VAN DIVER [26:11]
Yeah, sure. So a bad day was obviously when the bomb went off at the gate. And we knew that we had friends that were at the gate, and we knew that marines were dead now. It was a gut punch, and it was really hard to continue even though we knew we had to. It's really hard to continue knowing that this could happen again. A really, really good day was when some of our friends that were part of a high risk group, I'm going to be very vague about who they are, but some of our friends who are in a very high risk group and we'd been focused on them and we'd been trying every day to get them in the gate. Every day we were met with a new challenge. They, surprise, got in the gate in a fashion that we didn't expect. And it was all of them. They'd all gotten in. They were on a plane. And Jack McCain and I decided we brought this bottle of Jefferson's Aged at Sea whiskey to the operations center. We said, we're saving this. We're going to celebrate the wins with this. And it sat there for a long time before we could celebrate a win. And it was like ten a.m. and this thing happened and we were like, oh my god, we did it. Holy shit. So I looked at Jack and I'm like, dude, we got to have this. And he's like, absolutely. So we poured a little whiskey and we celebrated at 10AM, which is not, I don't like to drink that early, obviously. And it's really good whiskey that's aged on a boat and two navy guys working together who couldn't be more opposite toasting to every person who was a part of this. And look, the reality is that the real credit goes to these Afghans who through their tenacity, their resilience, and their dedication to their families and to our country were able to get out.

Kosinski: Today, with the US military gone, it's a whole different game. Sean says they can't say a lot about the process now, but they work with government partners and stakeholders in Afghanistan to still try to sort out safe passage for people any way they can.

Kosinski: Are you having to coordinate with the Taliban? VAN DIVER [28:32]
No. That's one of the commitments that our private groups have made is we don't have any business coordinating with them. We're not diplomats.

Kosinski: Was there ever a point where you were like, this is not gonna work? VAN DIVER [28:48]
So absolutely, of course, we had doubts. Every day I woke up and said like, I've been trying to get out of this business since it started. Right? I have a day job. I have a family. I have a 15 year old daughter. My wife is a saint. My overarching concern in all of this has been that we would do something that got somebody killed. And so we have to be very judicious and careful about how we engage and about how we raise hopes for these folks who are having the hardest time of their lives. And they're very worried that they're gonna die. They're very worried that their families aren't gonna make it out.

Kosinski: I almost hate to ask, but have there been people that you knew of that you were trying to help who have been killed by the Taliban since this happened? VAN DIVER [29:45]
We have lost folks that, like, people in the coalition have lost folks that have, like, lost comms or, you know, there was one person in our coalition who was on the phone with somebody who died at the bomb.

Kosinski: Oh, God. VAN DIVER [29:59]
Yeah. And so that was a really tough day. And look, the reality is that these SIVs, the folks that served alongside us and took up arms, protected us while they were armed. And every frontline civilian that's worked in Afghanistan is every bit the veteran that I am. And I hope that our country can come to recognize that and recognize the sacrifice that comes, and often at a higher cost to those who don't wear a uniform than those who do.

Kosinski: In the thick of it, in the days after Kabul collapsed, and you're trying to make it work, what's a specific or two that made you say, like, this is nonsense. Like, this needs to be working better. VAN DIVER [30:46]
You know, I really wish that we could have had a better process at the gate. We had lists of people, we had their passport information, we had created an app that validated that they did in fact have at least what appeared to be good documents. And also, I was on the phone a lot with government employees in the executive and legislative branches who were sobbing about how they wish they could do more. These people were working their asses off, just like everybody on the outside. And I'm really upset that for decades, our bureaucratic processes have prevented people who we gave guns to and said, hey, you're good enough to stand behind me with a firearm that could kill me, but you're not good enough to come to our country. We have to go through processing and vetting and all this extreme vetting stuff. They've been vetted. They served alongside us. The least we could do is let them come here. At least they're less of a threat than the folks who stormed the Capitol on January 6, and some of those folks are law enforcement and military themselves. So I don't have any room in my heart for anybody who says that these folks are dangerous, and they're certainly not any more dangerous than somebody who shot up a school.

Kosinski: And the many things through this that you've been able to do, what are you most proud of? What makes you feel really good when you think about it during the day? VAN DIVER [32:18]
I am really proud. Me personally, I'm really proud that I had a heavy role in getting to an agreement for government and these private organizations to work together as a team rather than in an adversarial manner, in a manner that had the impact of saving lives on the ground in Afghanistan. And I'm really proud that I got to take my friends to a baseball game and help them forget their troubles if only for a few hours.

Kosinski: Do you realize what an amazing, good person you are? VAN DIVER [32:53]
I think that's aggressive. There's a lot of good people, a lot of people. There's a lot of folks that worked in the intel community and set up logistics in places that maybe we didn't want to set up logistics in.

Kosinski: You know, as this was going down, I would sometimes tweet about groups I knew of who were stuck in Afghanistan and needed help. And I would often get all this pushback from people out there who didn't want anything to look like a weakness in how the government was handling this, right? So they would say, well, all those stranded people, they should have tried earlier to get out of there. What do you say to that? VAN DIVER [33:30]
We told them it would be September. There were a lot of folks that had flights out on August 28, August 29. Also, the reality is that there's a lot of folks that couldn't leave because their SIV paperwork wasn't completed, wasn't processed. There's any number of reasons why it wasn't their fault they couldn't leave. And also, we're asking people to uproot themselves. I would love to know if there's any lifelong Texans that, if Texas was in trouble and we told them, you got to leave Texas, if they would immediately uproot themselves and leave. I suspect not. The idea that, well, these people should have known better is asinine and frankly, it doesn't matter. The reality is that they're in harm's way now. We've got a whole statue in New York, with a poem on it, that ends with, bring me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free. And that itself is an American ideal, especially when we've gone in and we did this. Especially when the chaos that exists right now is due to our leaving, which is expected. So, you know, people who are Monday morning quarterbacking, whether or not Aziz should have left two weeks earlier, as though anybody knew that this was gonna happen this fast, I think is just seeking attention and probably should maybe listen to more Afghans instead of more Americans.

Kosinski: Sean, is there anything else you'd like to say about this absolutely remarkable decision that you made to put all of this together? I feel like I've started to cry several times during this interview. Me too. VAN DIVER [35:20]
I am just so proud of everybody that we stood alongside. Every single veteran, intelligence community professional, frontline civilian, you know, house spouse, whoever, West Point cadet, and everybody in between that paused their lives for two weeks or a month or however long to dive in.

Kosinski: You realize that these are people whose lives you've saved likely. VAN DIVER [35:47]
Yeah. But there's people that save lives every day, right? And I think that's a human thing to do.

Kosinski: It has been such a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for taking this chunk of time. VAN DIVER [35:58]
Thank you. We'll talk soon.

ANALYSIS WITH SIR RICHARD DEARLOVE

Kosinski: Today, Sean's group has raised more than 10,000,000 in pledges. Let's bring back Sir Richard Dearlove. Richard, like I was saying, I don't know whether to be more admiring of what these people can accomplish or more depressed that they felt the need to jump in. I agree with you. Having been so close to the situation and so involved yourself, what stays with you?

Dearlove: I think that the reasons that we went there were very clear initially, which was to deny, let's say, unoccupied political space to Al Qaeda and its affiliates. And that as an objective was relatively successful. I think what I regret is how I would say the sort of Western arrogance about trying to rebuild and recreate the country. And once we had made that commitment, then there was an expectation amongst those people who welcomed us in Afghanistan, and many did, that we should stay and see it through.

Kosinski: Has this whole mess and the downfall of Afghanistan to the Taliban just highlighted the West's failures of intelligence?

Dearlove: I don't think we know the answer to that question. The assessment about the durability of the government was badly awry, badly awry. I mean, that discrepancy is huge.

Kosinski: It also seems to really shine a light on the vulnerabilities and the gaps in the abilities that governments have to clean up their own messes.

Dearlove: Yeah. I absolutely agree with you.

Kosinski: What do you feel for those people who are going to have to grow up or shape an entirely new life under the Taliban?

Dearlove: I think the situation that they face at the moment is pretty desperate. I mean, is the country gonna disintegrate into some sort of rebellion or revolution? You know? And one wonders what role women, you know, may play in the future in bringing this government to an end.

Kosinski: You know, when I was in Istanbul a few weeks ago, right after this happened, one of the Taliban leaders, he was a former ambassador and he was in Turkey at the time. So he comes to the television station to do an interview live. And what does he see? A female booker, a female director, multiple female producers, female researchers, female presenters, and journalists. And this guy enters this secular Muslim country where he sees kind of the complete flip side of life. And he has to see that it's functioning a hell of a lot better than Afghanistan and that people have just more options in their life. You wonder why that doesn't register. They're just so hardened ideologically to that.

Dearlove: One thinks of what happened in Kurdistan and the way that the women actually militarily fought in Kurdistan to, you know, secure their place in society.

Kosinski: I wonder what life will look like a year, five years down the road. Richard, thanks for your insight. As for how Lucky and his family are doing today, they're in California recovering from the shock of what happened. They aren't sleeping well. Lucky's three year old daughter sometimes still thinks she's in Afghanistan. They wake up with night terrors and have symptoms of PTSD. But Lucky's working hard at his business and driving a truck, readjusting to a life with their homeland changed. They are safe. Thanks for joining us here at One Decision. I'm Michelle Kosinski. Follow us wherever you find your podcasts and on social media. Check out our website. Send us your ideas. We always love to hear from you here at One Decision.