Episode Info
- Season18
Hosted by Christina Ruffini and Sir Richard Dearlove
Guest
Ellen Nakashima
Ellen Nakashima is The Washington Post's national security reporter who documented an exclusive scoop on Chinese military hackers breaching the classified defense network of Japan.
Episode Summary
In the waning days of the Trump administration, United States national security officials discovered that Chinese military hackers had breached the classified defense network of one of its most important security allies—Japan. In this week's bonus episode, Brett Bruen, the former Director of Global Engagement in President Obama’s White House speaks with The Washington Post's national security reporter Ellen Nakashima about her exclusive scoop documenting the hack, why it took Tokyo years to plug the network gaps, and what the Biden administration did behind-the-scenes to help Japan secure its cyber defenses.
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Transcript
INTRODUCTION
Mcfarlane: I'm Julia McFarlane, host of One Decision, the podcast that looks at the choices made that shape our world. Together with my cohost, the former chief of British intelligence, Sir Richard Dearlove, we unpack the key decisions, past, present, and future, that matter to us all. We drop new episodes every Thursday. But today, we're bringing you One More Decision, smart analysis of the latest breaking news around the world with Global Situation Room president Brett Bruen, who served as the White House director of global engagement during the Obama administration.
INTERVIEW
Bruen: Over to you, Brett. It has been a long, hot, sweltering summer here along the banks of the Potomac River, and yet American officials had even more reason for perspiration last week. The Washington Post was out with an exclusive story. It documented how Chinese hackers had gotten deep into Japan's most sensitive, most secretive systems, and they stayed there for years. In the waning days of the Trump administration, American officials had urgently boarded a plane bound for Tokyo to warn their Japanese counterparts of the Chinese presence, and yet it has taken years to rid their systems of Chinese hackers and to plug the gaps. Ellen Nakashima, the national security reporter at the paper, broke this story, and Ellen is with us today. Ellen, I'd like to start out on that point. Why did it take so long to get the Chinese out of Japan's classified networks?
Nakashima: Part of it is politics. Part of it is culture. The Japanese themselves were going through a political transition. Prime Minister Suga gave way to Prime Minister Fumio Kishida, and their government was also somewhat siloed or stovepiped when it came to handling something like cybersecurity. Now fast forward to today, the Japanese are very much more aware of and on the ball when it comes to addressing cybersecurity issues. But back then, a few years ago, they were not quite as committed to it or as organized to deal with it. And one of the things that happened was once the Biden administration took over, they had created a new job in the National Security Council of this deputy national security advisor for cyber and emerging technologies. They put Anne Neuberger in and she came from the NSA where she had worked with General Nakasone. In fact, she was actually aware of this penetration's breach going back to her days at NSA. When she came in, of course you might remember that the US government was dealing with the SolarWinds breach, major Russian hack of both US government as well as commercial networks. There were several other major cyber crises to deal with, Microsoft Exchange compromise, and then ransomware, the big Colonial Pipeline ransomware attack that created a huge, you know, political and security event here in the United States. And so Anne was dealing with that at the time. When that receded a bit and she realized that the breach was still active, that the Chinese were still inside the networks, and more needed to be done. She and several aides, colleagues at the National Security Council, flew to Tokyo in November 2021 to talk to their counterparts and really drive home the point that this is something that needs to be addressed, that the United States is dealing with its own cyber issues as well, but both countries need to work together to really strengthen cybersecurity in their networks, especially because the two are such crucial allies when it comes to sharing military and defense information. Japan is probably the most important strategic ally the US military has in the East Asia Pacific, especially as they're dealing with a much more assertive China in the region.
Bruen: And in reading your piece, I was struck by how this increasing trust, cooperation potentially is a reflection of what's happening more broadly with military to military, intelligence to intelligence cooperation between the US and Japan. You point out in the article that, obviously, there were some suspicions in Tokyo when it comes to cybersecurity and the US's past spying on Japanese officials. Is it safe to say we've moved beyond that? And what does this level of cooperation indicate for where we're standing in the US-Japan alliance at the moment?
Nakashima: So after Anne Neuberger flew to Tokyo and really sort of got on the same wavelength with the counterparts there, things started to change. There's much more coordination between and among their own agencies and then the Japanese government especially at the Central National Security Secretariat level, their equivalent of the NSC and the White House here. And that has led to, for instance, this very like landmark in a way national security strategy that Japan issued in December which includes for the first time a cybersecurity strategy. They are putting money up against it. I think they're saying $7 billion over the next five years in cybersecurity. They are increasing their cyber military forces more than fourfold to 4,000. They have stood up a cyber command, did that last year, which they say monitors their networks 24/7. They're aligning their own cyber standards to international standards. Now that doesn't mean that they are where they really need to be right now. It's a long process, an arduous one, but they have made significant steps that have impressed officials at the Pentagon and the White House and elsewhere. And that is all part of, as you point out, this real turn in Japan's own perception of its security role in the region. It has under Fumio Kishida, who is sort of taking up the mantle of former Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, in really moving Japan much more assertively into self-defense and though they don't like to use the word, you know, doing some offense, they have committed to developing their own counter-strike capability, building long-range strike capabilities, to include also buying US Tomahawk missiles that can strike into the Chinese mainland in the event of a conflict. They're allowing the US Marines to put a new advanced type of regiment in the islands off the southwest of Okinawa, which is a strategic location. They are running more and more sort of stepped-up joint exercises with the US and even with South Korea. All of these steps were sort of, you know, unthinkable maybe ten years ago and gradually over the years they've moved politically more in the direction of being comfortable in this sort of relationship and position with the US to the point where now they are very much a key security and strategic partner for the US in the region.
Bruen: I'm wondering what this revelation means for the extent to which the Chinese offensive cyber capabilities really advance, because I think it's easy for a layperson to look at a report of a cyber attack. I remember the Russians when I was at the White House had hacked into the unclassified networks of both the White House and the State Department. But this is another level. And should we be worried or how worried should we be?
Nakashima: The Chinese are one of the most aggressive cyber actors on the planet. And they're increasing, you know, they're aggressive. Their tactics and methods keep evolving. More recently, we've seen the Chinese get into critical infrastructure, which is a worrisome development. We haven't seen them actually use that access to conduct any disruptive attacks, but the fact that they have gotten into transportation, communication, logistical networks is very concerning to the government and something that needs to be watched carefully.
Bruen: And that obviously comes at a time of heightened tensions between Washington and Beijing. Could I ask, Ellen, for you to look into that lens of the future that you uniquely have at the Washington Post and tell us what do you see as the next chapter in this story? What is the next network we're likely to learn about being compromised? And where should we be focusing more attention?
Nakashima: Well, far be it for me to sort of predict what the network will discover has been compromised, but, you know, keep in mind that this penetration took place at least three years ago. Sometimes, you know, we find out only months later that there's been a breach. But the Chinese have been spying using not just cyber, but other means to try to surveil the US and other countries around the world for years, and they will continue to do so. I mean, countries spy on each other. What we need to make sure we're very alert to is any evolution in that sort of access to turn to more disruptive means, getting into critical command and control networks, satellites, working out, you know, hacking systems that deal with space assets, anything that could actually, I think, be crucial in a conflict. You know, there's always the disinformation issue that is often talked about. It's both, you know, the Russians, the Iranians, now the Chinese. They're all trying to use the online networks to influence political attitudes and discourse in other countries.
Bruen: You're one of the best connected reporters in this town to intelligence officials and others in the national security structure. What are you hearing from them with regards to China and how they are thinking about both the Taiwan and the broader Indo-Pacific defense and deterrence, as well as obviously the threats here to the homeland of the United States?
Nakashima: Xi Jinping would like to secure the stability, security of the Chinese Communist Party for as long as he can. He would like to secure the primacy of the party and of China in the region and make it a dominant force militarily, economically, and politically. For instance, the surveillance and intelligence tactics that it uses are all in the service of those goals. Right? And one of his main desires is to, at some point, achieve reunification, as he calls it, of Taiwan with the Mainland China. He has also ordered his military, the PLA, to be prepared to, ready to, capable of taking Taiwan if by force if need be by 2027. Does not mean that they will do so by then or before then, but that is his, you know, his order. They are executing on a very ambitious military modernization and buildup in its nuclear forces, building hundreds of new silos, creating new command structures, they're developing space-based assets, they're getting—they're just pouring a lot of money into their military and defense even at a time when their economy is slowing. Right? Their economic growth is projected to fall below forecasts and their population is aging. So they've got some significant headwinds domestically. With all of that, you know, China is seeking to project power, exert influence, not just in the region, but around the world and the globe.
Bruen: Ellen Nakashima, national security reporter at The Washington Post, thank you for joining us on One More Decision.
Mcfarlane: That's it for this week's episode of One Decision. We drop new episodes every Thursday. Like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Drop us a line. Tell us your thoughts. What decisions have impacted you and where you live? You can write to us. Our email is 1decision@1decisionpodcast.com. From me and the team, thank you for listening, and see you next time.
