Episode Info
- Season1
Hosted by Christina Ruffini and Sir Richard Dearlove
Guest
Noga Tarnopolsky
Noga Tarnopolsky is a journalist from Jerusalem providing an update on Israel's judicial overhaul debate and the state of US-Israeli relations.
Episode Summary
Protests have picked up in Israel this week as the Knesset takes up the controversial legislation proposed by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that critics say would compromise the integrity and independence of Israel’s judicial system. If passed, the measure would eliminate the so-called "reasonableness clause" and would permit the judiciary to put curbs on government decisions granting Netanyahu and his coalition unfettered powers. One Decision's Julia Macfarlane speaks to journalist Noga Tarnopolsky from Jerusalem for an update on what's happening on the ground and the state of US-Israeli relations after President Joe Biden criticized the judicial overhaul plan.
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Transcript
INTRODUCTION
Mcfarlane: You're listening to One More Decision brought to you by the team behind the global politics podcast, One Decision. Every week, we look in-depth at the choices made that shape our world with me, Julia McFarlane, journalist and broadcaster, and my co-host, Sir Richard Dearlove, the former chief of Britain's SIS or formerly known as MI6. You can catch our full length discussions every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. But we're coming to you with a short bonus episode. That's because we wanted to check in on the latest that's been happening in Israel. You may remember the country was gripped by historic protests a few months ago, triggered by controversial legislation brought by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that would have, critics say, compromised the integrity and independence of Israel's judicial system, along with other changes that could have affected the institutions in the state. We thought who better to call up to explain to us what's been happening since then and what's going on now then Noga Tartakovsky, friend of our podcast. Noga, it is so lovely to see you again, albeit virtually. I feel like it's been forever since I last had the pleasure of seeing you on your home turf in Jerusalem. There's been a lot that's happened since then. I think that was 2014. Pre-Trump, pre-Brexit, pre so many things.
Tanipolski: It feels like a lifetime ago, doesn't it? Feels like an absolute age.
INTERVIEW
Mcfarlane: So, Noga, tell us what has been going on in Israel since it was last in the international headlines. There were those huge protests against the judicial reforms. It was covered widely by global media, but it's kind of dropped off since then. But things are slowly coming to a head yet again. And we have seen news coming out of Israel that police have arrested dozens of people. There's been this so-called day of disruption that's been happening. Why are these protests building once again? And what's the latest in Israel?
Tanipolski: Well, the protests actually never stopped. They did fall off the headlines, but that had more to do, I think, with priorities among the global media. In Israel, the protests never have let up. And what's happening now, as you hinted, is that we've basically circled back to exactly where we were, at the very end of March, so about four months ago. At that time, Netanyahu's government had advanced a bill that would have had it passed the Knesset the next day as planned, would have completely transformed the way judicial appointments are made in Israel. This week's protests have been caused by the government resuming its legislative work, and what it's taken up is the elimination of the so-called reasonableness clause, which permits the judiciary to put a curb on government decisions, potentially including the firing of the attorney general or the hiring of a minister who's a convicted tax fraud. And if this bill passes, it's scheduled now to pass Sunday or Monday, it will basically leave Netanyahu and his coalition with unfettered powers. In other words, it would remove the judiciary's ability to put any kind of a check on this government, for example, hiring of a convict as a minister, firing of the attorney general, and so on and so forth.
Mcfarlane: And I think what's so interesting is the visceral reaction from the Israelis, who have taken to the streets in such numbers in response to this, I think is so interesting because we've had all kinds of political meddling with the Supreme Court in the United States. But is it just, you know, do Americans care less about their democratic institutions than Israelis? I mean, why do you think the Israelis have reacted so strongly to this?
Tanipolski: I think that's a really important question. And obviously it's a web of answers, right? So one way of looking at it is that Israel is a much smaller country than the United States and much more vulnerable. And the population has sort of an inherent sense of the dangers that face the country. So now that kind of fight or flight response has been triggered by what's being seen by millions as an internal threat. Another reason, I think, is that so many Israelis have a history of their family's immigration, even if it's great grandparents, but so many of them fled authoritarian regimes. And so people respond in a way both to the political developments and to sort of what they heard around the dinner table of what can happen when an authoritarian leader takes over. And then finally, it's something that's kind of a completely different family of issues, but what my friends who are constitutional scholars, you know, from Poland, from Hungary point out is that in its seventy-five year history, Israel has always been a very robust democracy. So if you are, let's say, a 73 year old Israeli, all you know is a very, very freewheeling democratic life. You may have heard of other things in your past, but what you know is now what you feel is being threatened. And so this lived experience of very kind of raucous democracy, I think fuels a lot of protests that we didn't see certainly in comparable situations in Europe.
Mcfarlane: I think that's so interesting and so insightful. We touched on this when we covered the protests back in March, but I want to get into it again just briefly with you. Obviously, Prime Minister Netanyahu is embroiled in some legal difficulty right now, which obviously everyone thought interfering in the judiciary can't have anything to do with his corruption trial that he's facing at the moment. It's a little more complicated than that, although some people say that's clearly a motivation for Netanyahu, but he has elements in his coalition who also have a vested interest in curbing the independence of the courts. Is that right, Noga?
Tanipolski: Yes, it's true. Some of his coalition members have definitely a vested interest, for example, some of the ultra-orthodox Jewish parties who want the court to enshrine a kind of permanent draft deferral for their population. Your average Israeli man and woman is drafted to the army for a few years at age 18 and they want, instead of that being a constant source of controversy here in society, they want that to be enshrined in law. So that's one side of it, but I have to tell you, Julia, even reluctantly, I have to tell you that I do have the feeling that an enormous amount of the turmoil overtaking Israel right now can be traced to five years ago when Benjamin Netanyahu found out that he was being investigated for possible crimes by the police, and something appears to have just clicked for him at that point. And if you look at the last five years, which have included five electoral campaigns, you see somebody increasingly fixated on basically eliminating any legal challenge to him.
Mcfarlane: I'm coming to you from a country that sympathizes with regards to having many general elections in the last few years, but also from Scotland, where our former first minister has found herself being investigated by the police. So, there seems to be something catching on, particularly when we look at President Trump's travails. But that's by the by. The Israeli President Herzog is in Washington, isn't he? He's been meeting with President Biden who has not been someone who gets on the greatest with Benjamin Netanyahu. And ahead of that meeting, President Biden phoned Prime Minister Netanyahu and warned him about these judicial reforms that he wants to pass. There have been people talking about how these reforms may be impacting not only Israel's image overseas, but also that very special relationship with the US. Tell us more about all of that.
Tanipolski: Well, this is in a way the crux of the matter. You know, we returned to Israel as a small and vulnerable country in a difficult neighborhood, and I think that there's no doubt at all that Israel's number one strategic asset is its very special relationship, a unique relationship to the United States. We always talk about how much Israel receives from the United States, how much Israel owes the United States, even, you know, for example preventing UN decisions very often against Israel. But I think it's also important to say that for the United States having Israel as a kind of reliable outpost in a non-reliable Middle East has also been a pretty high value relationship. And what we're seeing now are Israeli leaders, I don't know how to put it, either willing to tear that up or the notion of this relationship is so inviolable in Netanyahu's mind that he simply can't believe that it could be harmed. And yet, the United States has issued just one after the other warnings. In the last forty-eight hours, we have had four or five explicit warnings from the White House. I can't remember anything like this happening during my entire career covering this region and covering the United States in this region. So President Biden has simply gone all out in a phone call with Netanyahu, in his meeting with Herzog, in a remarkable, just unique remarkable interview he gave Tom Friedman in the New York Times and in both statements made by his press secretary, his secretary of state and the spokesperson for the National Security Council. So I've lost track, I think we're up to some eight warnings explicitly made in the last forty-eight hours. The reason for this is the legislation that Netanyahu is advancing, which again would grant him and his government unfettered powers that the judiciary couldn't really scrutinize. And I think for Biden, who has basically grown up with the State of Israel and who was taught by his own father about kind of the miraculous creation of this state as a very young boy, I think he sees a fundamental fact of his life as a diplomat, chairman of the Senate foreign relations committee just unraveling in front of his face, and it's a remarkable situation, and it's remarkable that Biden has succeeded in issuing these very stark warnings to Netanyahu without alienating Israeli citizens. There was a very recent Pew poll in which foreign countries, the way Biden is viewed, and I think Israel was the top country in terms of Biden's popularity around the world.
Mcfarlane: Interesting. That's so interesting. And I think it's such a comprehensive sort of overview of how this relationship has soured. It's interesting because the Israelis have seen two very different administrations in recent years. The Trump administration who finally built that embassy in Jerusalem, something that the Israelis have always wanted, but traditionally the Americans had refused to grant them until that final peace settlement with the Palestinians. That's obviously sort of by the by nowadays. Just explain to us what is mounting for this weekend, because as I understand it, it's set to be a pretty raucous, pretty pivotal weekend as far as these judicial reforms and this particular saga, how that's going.
Tanipolski: I just want to add something that's almost anecdotal, but you mentioned the building of the embassy in Jerusalem and it's such a crucial matter because it touches on another universal fact of world politics today, which is kind of the fight between non-truth and truth in politics. I mention this because this week has been crammed with protests, and now I'm quoting the official announcement, in front of the US embassy in Tel Aviv, and you would ask me, well, how can that be? And the reason that can be is that Trump never built the embassy in Jerusalem. He announced it, he declared it. He stuck a plaque on the consulate building and said this is now, you know, the Trump announced embassy in Jerusalem. But the fact of the matter is that the embassy and its workings has never moved.
Mcfarlane: They're still operating out of the Tel Aviv embassy then? That's correct. I did not know that, that's hilarious. It is hilarious, but it's so revealing. It's all about our optics these days, is it? Yeah.
Tanipolski: So let me just say this weekend is building up to be huge and you really can feel the tension in the air. I know that's a cliche, but I have to say it because you walk around today, I've been in Jerusalem all day, and the air feels thick with tension, with anticipation. There are marches now towards Jaffa Gate in the Old City, downtown at Zion Square, highways all over the country are blocked, Tel Aviv is completely blocked and we expect it just to get hotter and hotter over the course of this weekend. Netanyahu for now is planning to bring this bill, which would undo the reasonableness clause, to a final Knesset vote, a plenum vote, either Sunday or Monday, and so Friday and Saturday are going to be days in which the struggle really will be seen on the streets of this country between a population that in its majority doesn't want these measures and is getting scared, and a prime minister who sees in these measures his own political salvation.
Mcfarlane: That's a very powerful note to end it on. Let's end it on there. Noga, thank you so much. It's so great to catch up with you and I very, very much hope to see you soon. That's it for this week's episode of One Decision. We drop new episodes every Thursday. Like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Drop us a line. Tell us your thoughts. What decisions have impacted you and where you live? You can write to us. Our email is 1decision@1decisionpodcast.com. From me and the team, thank you for listening, and see you next time.
