Episode Info
- Season18
Hosted by Christina Ruffini and Sir Richard Dearlove
Guest
Episode Summary
After a major national security investigation into Moscow’s espionage efforts, Great Britain unmasked an alleged Russian spy ring. Three Bulgarian nationals suspected of working for Russian security services were charged with possessing numerous forged identification documents. On this week’s bonus episode, Julia Macfarlane asks her co-host and former MI6 Chief, Sir Richard Dearlove about how the alleged spies likely got caught and speculation the trio may have been sleeper agents.
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Transcript
INTRODUCTION
Mcfarlane: You're listening to One More Decision, a short update from the team that brings you One Decision, the podcast that looks at the big choices that shape our world. I'm your host, Julia McFarlane, journalist and broadcaster. I'm joined today by my cohost, Sir Richard Dearlove, the former chief of Britain's Secret Intelligence Service. And it's a good day to have Sir Richard on the line because we have a spy story to look at. Earlier this week, the BBC reported that a suspected Russian spy ring had been unmasked after a major investigation. Five people have now been arrested on suspicion of offenses under the Official Secrets Act. What more do we know about this story? I thought it would be a good idea to ask our own tamed spy master for his thoughts. So, Richard, very, very interesting story emerging last week, which was three suspected spies for Russia in the UK arrested and charged in a major national security investigation. The defendants, they were all Bulgarian nationals. They were originally held in February, and it's interesting that it's just coming out now. They've been charged with allegedly working for the Russian security services. I think five people in total were arrested on suspicion of offenses under the Official Secrets Act. Really, really interesting. We always love a good spy story, and who better to talk to about spies than you? You know, how surprised were you at the fact that this alleged spy ring had been broken up? And, you know, feel free to regale us with stories of chasing Russian spies when you were head of MI6 back in the day?
INTERVIEW
Dearlove: Well, bear in mind that, you know, MI6 is not the security service, and the issue, you know, in the UK would have been dealt with mainly by MI5, the security service, who would have — there would have been a massive investigation.
Mcfarlane: You must have been working in tandem with MI5, surely.
Dearlove: Oh yeah. No, obviously. You know, attack's the best means of defense. So, you know, the key question is how these people were identified and how they were caught and one can speculate and, you know, if it was the result of a British penetration of Russian intelligence, which it could have been, then, you know, that shows that the best form of defense is attack. So, you know, you have some penetration that gives you the detail. I mean, look, this is pure speculation, but these people clearly came to attention in some manner and given the number of Bulgarians who are in the UK, you know, why and how did the security service alight on this little group? Of course they say they're Bulgarians and they're documented as Bulgarians and they may be, you know, behaving as Bulgarians, but there's nothing to say that they aren't perhaps Russian nationals. So, you know, there's an awful lot that we don't know yet about this case. And I thought the charges that were made against them were related to documentation and foreign documentation. But I did see in the newspapers that they were holding all sorts of different passports and identity papers, which suggest to me that this group has something to do with the support of what the professionals would refer to as Russian illegals. Now Russian illegals are people documented, maybe like as Brazilians or Dutch or Czech or maybe Bulgarians or Romanians that have the papers, but in fact are, you know, trained intelligence people who are infiltrated into the country who you're never going to identify because they just look like ordinary people unless you have an intelligence lead. So there's something about this group which, you know, is interesting in that respect. None of these people appear to have much intelligence access. What I mean by that is they probably don't have access to British secrets or secret information, but they're there as a sort of intelligence facility should the Russians need it.
Mcfarlane: I mean, it's extraordinary details. It was one of these Bulgarians allegedly used this hotel in Great Yarmouth as the headquarters of a sort of forgery operation. I read a detail in the Times that apparently he had 007 in his email handle. And the detail that he's using this sort of seaside B and B, this three star B and B hotel as his forgery headquarters. It's just — people have found it hilarious. I mean, it's sort of Fawlty Towers come Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy. I mean, one would have expected a bit more glamour from Russian spies, I guess.
Dearlove: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think, you know, you've got to understand that a lot of preparation for espionage — look. There are two intelligence organizations in Russia. One is the KGB, as it used to be, the First Chief Directorate, which is now called the SVR, and the other is military intelligence, the GRU. My suspicion is that this group may well be what are GRU sleepers. So they're people sort of inserted into the civilian population. So if there's a crisis in relations between Russia and the UK, and I mean, bearing in mind that we are engaged in a sort of gray warfare conflict with Russia, these people then maybe begin to have a role. And they're there as a sort of facility, and it may be that they're supporting other agents already infiltrated here, I don't know, but there are all sorts of possibilities. The bizarre, rather peculiar nature of this group suggests to me that rather than the First Chief Directorate, the SVR who are quite sophisticated, they're possibly the GRU and, that's the military intelligence. And, of course, those are the people that tried to murder Skripal and those sort of bizarre visitors to Salisbury Cathedral and looking at the height of the spire and the sort of weird stories that they put out. And maybe this is a GRU operation because of its peculiarities. But I'm sure that the truth eventually will emerge. And well, maybe the court case will be in camera, but I'm sure that more material will emerge.
Mcfarlane: The GRU operation to murder Skripal, I mean, that was a laughable sort of botched operation. And, I mean, do you think that the bona fide SVR spies at the top of their game, do you think they're embarrassed at, you know, these pantomime vaudeville GRU agents who are clowning around in their Great Yarmouth hotels and, you know, making up email addresses with double-o-seven?
Dearlove: These people might be SVR, they might not be GRU. And you know we don't know exactly what their role is or why they're there.
Mcfarlane: But Richard, do you think an SVR agent would put 007 in his email handle?
Dearlove: Well, probably not. But there's nothing better in a way than hiding in plain sight. So I mean I don't think we should be too cut and dried in our judgment. And of course, you know, what media love is that, you know, they went to a cafe and they ordered you know special English breakfast, cooked breakfasts. But I mean you know the thing is if these people are just sort of sleepers in their place there, of course there are going to be these sort of bizarre aspects to this.
Mcfarlane: Guarantee you a year from now when the writers' strike is over, you're gonna have some kind of comedy BBC, ITV drama about these guys or similar characters. I just wanna ask you one final question, and that is the use of FSU nationals, citizens who are not Russian, but citizens from former Soviet Union states. These guys were all Bulgarians, but the Russians, they do have form for using Czech nationals, Romanian nationals, Belarusian nationals in their spy ops. And that's something that your old colleague, Christopher Steele, formerly of the MI6 parish, has talked about, that this is something that the Russians do, that they have a specific use for citizens who are not Russian. Tell us more about that and do you think this is something that the UK government has switched on enough to deal with?
Dearlove: Well, you know, when there are so many Central Europeans in the UK, you know, this is a difficult issue and I'm sure you know maybe amongst those there are a very small number perhaps who retain you know this attachment and loyalty to the idea of the Soviet Union and its former empire. But I think on the other hand you have to be quite careful when you're talking about these issues because it may well be that the Bulgarians, as I've already said that you're so-called looking at, are not Bulgarians at all. They may have been documented as Bulgarians. They may have been, as it were, almost brought up as Bulgarians, but they might actually be Russians, you know, with different documentation. There was a case recently of an illegal arrested in Norway who was documented as a Brazilian, and he had taken the personality of a Brazilian and was purporting to be a Brazilian. So, you know, there are all sorts of possibilities and options here. And this is one thing that the Russians do. They use a technique which we refer to as illegals. So, you know, they have two types of intelligence personnel. You have the people, you know, that are undercover officers purporting to be diplomats who are in Russian embassies overseas or military attaches who have an intelligence role. And then there are people infiltrated into your population with documentation as Canadians, Brazilians, you could have almost anything. And there's a whole industry within Russian intelligence, it is called Line N, which is about documenting and developing the legend of illegals who can purport to be, as it were, different people, but are ultimately Russian operatives working inside your population. Now the GRU also do this, but I think the GRU are rather less professional at doing it than the SVR. And, it may well be that this group are a GRU group, but, you know, we do not know. And if they were a GRU group, they might have sort of various tasking, which would not be particularly damaging to British intelligence except possibly in time of direct conflict or, you know, in a pre-crisis before the outbreak of a military conflict.
Mcfarlane: Does that explain it? It's — look. It's quite a tricky and technical issue to explain to the layman.
Dearlove: No. No. It is.
Mcfarlane: And I do hope we're gonna see more from the Russian version of the Chuckle Brothers as we get closer to trial. Yeah. But thank you, Richard. That's fascinating. That's it for this week's episode of One Decision. We drop new episodes every Thursday. Like and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Drop us a line. Tell us your thoughts. What decisions have impacted you and where you live? You can write to us. Our email is 1decision@1decisionpodcast.com. From me and the team, thank you for listening, and see you next time.
